Wednesday, September 2, 2009

Finale 2010 vs Sibelius 6 Discussion

Here's a transcript of a conversation between mutual friends and Finale/Sibelius users:

Doug:


Just got Sibelius 6 in the mail and am making that jump! Seriously, as a long- time Finale user who just got Finale 2010 and is utterly fed up with this company - in the first 60min of working with Sibelius, Avid is giving Makemusic a swift kick to the nuts.


Farnell: Is Sibelius that nice. I have seen newbies make pretty good looking charts on it?


Kevin: Keep me updated. I've been thinking of jumping myself.

Jon: @Doug: How so?

Doug: @Jon - granted, I'm just starting to learn Sib - but it's just feeling really organic to learn. Key shortcuts are down-right obvious: Need a key change? Type K. Need a time signature? Type T. Need to change the name of a part? Double click the name and just type it in. No stupid Dialogue Box.

Also learned just today: Want to repeat a bar? Select the bar and hit R. Playback is drastically better than Finale's, including to forward and rewind by just hitting [ and ]. Want to play from a note in the chart? Select the note and hit P.

Scan score - looks like it's actually working. I put in a .pdf and imported right into Sib. That's going to save a ton of time. And Magnetic Layout in this Version 6 (the feature that made me jump) is an amazing, amazing time saver. We're talking cutting the scoring process in half.

Jon: Interesting! Do you use the contextual menus (right mouse click) in Finale much? When you used Finale, what was your 'preferred' entry method? Those are some compelling shortcuts in Sib that you mentioned.

Eric: Does it do guitar tab also? Thinking it could be good for composing and my students.

Jon: Good to hear that Avid is supporting development. With the aquisition, I feared they'd let it lay fallow. I'm a user of Finale, but competition is good- makes them all accountable and continue development.

Doug: @Eric - oh yeah, and it does an awesome job. Entry is super simple. Folks - I've used Finale for since 1998, I'm not working for Avid. I just have to say that the interface is leaps and bounds beyond Finale.

Doug: @Jon - absolutely, Finale needs a torch up under their ass. They've been basically working with the same programming architecture for a decade and year after year, they patch up the bad code with fixes that help you access that bad code a little easier. Really, going thru all of those menus is a joke. e: right clicks - didn't use much of these w/Finale - I've memorized all the key shortcuts and was pretty adroit at using them. To get around their stupid tool system, I programmed each tool to a shortcut key on my Mac. (ctrl-shift (F thru ')). That way I could go thru a chart and hit ctrl-F (mass edit) or whatever and select what I needed. I didn't think about how ridiculous it was that I had to set up that system of short cuts in the first place. With Sib, it's click something. Move it. Make it go. Change it. The ultimate "duh"! More to come:

Jon: For the past several years if you right click on the measure, all of the things you describe are accessible- key changes, transpositions, clefs, time sig, repeats, etc.

Jon: One of the drawbacks with being the 'ederle statesmen' in notation is the same problem Windows faces vs. Mac-- support of legacy users and files. There are numerous new ways to enter an manipulate things in Finale, but people like you and I that have been using it for a log time, tend to usenit in the 'wy we always have'. Many of the things you're talking about can be done more efficiently in Finale, but there are MANY ways to do them---one of which is the 'old way' which is left in to support people who have become 'attatched' to their workflow.

Alex: I agree finale is really clunky (basically sucks) but it eventually gets the job done, eventually

Jon: @Alex What is clunky about Finale to you, the output of the music, the learning curve of te program, or the fact that there are many customizable things/tools that are presented which feels overwhelming? (tone of online text stinks- do not misread the above, I'm genuinely puzzled and interested in your response.)

Jon: @Doug: What do you mean by 'bad Code'. It didn't jump out at you but in 2000, and 2004 there were revulutionary changes made in the User Interface and input methods, but if you don't pursue them, it is possible to keep using Finale the same old way and see no change. Ida been far from stagnant. I'm not interested in "Sibelis rocks, Finale licks taint" arguments, but am interested in specifics of why you switched and what you did not find in Finale that you were looking for.

Alex: I am not by any means an expert on finale, but I have created several charts using it. I use note entry tool, with shortcuts, and I can roll along pretty good. Where it really gets wierd is with staff styles, and the dreaded "staff optimization" thing. For example, if I have the first 8 bars for the piano for treble and bass clefs, and then want to get rid of the bass clef it ends up being a real task.

Alex: also adding another instrument (staff to the arrangement) doesnt seem to work.

Doug: @Jon - There are so many factors involved in the switch that I'm going to have post them here as I think of them. But I can think of a couple now:

First off - after my last arranging session (still using Finale as I'm getting more used to Sib), I found that I use the contextual menus quite a bit. As regards to your argument regarding using new features of the program: Believe me John, I've been ardently seeking out these new features, taking the time to look them up in the manual, and forcing myself to use them in my day to day work. I won't be shy here - I'm a Finale "power user". I know just about all the tricks that there is to know - new or old. I have every new version since 2000. I know of the "revolutionary" changes of which you speak.

But - if you can take your Finale brain and muscle memory out of the equation here, just think about it:


Why does a part that is extracted (either old way or "linked parts") look like total ass after the extraction?

Doug: @Jon - Why should it take 3-5 per part to remove such collisions? (And that is after 10yrs of experience)

Why does it sometimes take 10-15min to edit and optimize a multi-staved part?

Why do I have to deal with a Text Expression dialogue box at all?


Why do I have to go thru libraries of characters to input a simple chord change the way I want it?

Why when I look at the chord suffixes they are impossibly small and difficult to read? This hasn't changed since, ever.

Why is the implementation of the staff optimization so bad in Finale 2010? Why did I have to call Make Music after having used this product for 12 years to remove an empty piano staff?

Why was the solution to this problem no where near the Page Layout tool, rather in the staff tool?

Why is the user interface for Garritan Sounds so damned difficult? Why do I have to do arithmetic to figure out how I can get a clarinet to play on Channel 2 which is actually Channel 19?

Doug: Why does my playback start late when using Garritan sounds? I have a brand new 3.06Ghz Mac. Settings have all been checked and re-checked.

Why can't I simply hit the arrow key to move the page right?

I can go on - but isn't it obvious that these are rather pedantic problems when looking at them from a modern technological point of view.


I decided to switch because ALL of these problems have been addressed in Sib 6. Magnetic layout TRULY removes collisions and lays out all the elements as they should be. This saves me hours - especially when editing big band and orchestral parts. Chord entry is just a matter of typing in your chord - and you get a legible, beautifully engraved chord symbol.

Sib 6 also now has Rewire support to run as plug in my 2 DAWs, Pro Tools and Logic. This marginalizes Finale's sole audio track.

Doug: Simply - Sib 6 has evolved and has made their interface completely more obvious and has added features that for years now Finale has been copying or trying to emulate. I've decided to go to the source of all of this great technology instead of waiting for an implementation by Finale. It's clear to me that Avid/Sibelius has more talent at their disposal and they are revolutionizing notation. Makemusic is and has been playing catch up and will be eclipsed completely, in my opinion, in the next few years to come.

1 comment:

  1. Given that you all are looking at a transition you should really check out Notion3...The folks over at Notion are truly going to "up the ante" for all notation products.

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